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Post by Ken Nagele on Aug 24, 2006 17:48:48 GMT -8
One might wonder why such a question would ever need to be asked. After all, we believe in the Bible, so why shouldn’t we believe what Christ said in Matthew 25 (specifically, the next to last part)?
The reason for the question is this: for almost a decade I have observed the members of the ekklesia of ASK online. While I understand that those online are generally a very small percentage of the entire body, I have to wonder if they are representative of the body as a whole?
The issue is: what should we be doing with our lives? The Bible tells us to grow in grace and knowledge. Yet, I see little evidence of that, based on the topics discussed on various forums. There is lots of talk, with no definitive conclusions. It’s kind of like a tea party, where we all make polite conversation under the guise of “fellowship”.
What I definitely have not seen in anyone’s life (as far as what has been publicly posted online) is anything relating to Matthew 25. About the use of the talents given to each of us - and the qualifications for our inheritance in the Kingdom of God. There are so many things we could be doing on a personal and daily basis to help mankind – as mandated by Christ in Matthew 25. Local communities have plenty of volunteer organizations for good causes. Online, there are also plenty of things one could get involved with. Just look at the topics listed at the top of the ASSOCIATES ONLINE. Take you pick!
How about visiting those in prison? Do you know that it is estimated that at least ten percent of those incarcerated should not be there? Or they are serving unjustly long sentences for minor infractions? How would you feel if it was you or a loved one that was unjustly locked up? Or how about our fellow Christians being slaughtered in Lebanon? How many of us ever sent the Salvation Army a donation during the Katrina disaster? Did you know that the government has still failed to provide for the victims of that huricane (and many churches are still providing relief work in the area)? The list of causes one could contribute to is endless.
And, we have a rather large percentage of supporters who are retired and don’t have to work. They are especially able to participate in helping mankind, utilizing their vast lifetime experiences. But even there I see no evidence of anyone doing anything to fulfill Matthew 25.
What I do see is endless discussions of matters that Dr. Martin has covered extensively in the past and should have been put to rest ages ago. And endless speculations on matters of prophecy that not only will never affect us, but will not even affect our children. Is this what we should be doing with our time, for the whole world to see? Are people who view us for the first time online going to want to be part of our ekklesia?
Incredible and tragic things are happening around the world on a daily basis – and we simply ignore them. We don’t even talk about them. We are like deer in the headlights. We could be helping people to understand (assuming we truly understand ourselves) – or helping people relieve their suffering, as Matthew 25 commands. So where is the Christianity that we, of all people, should be exhibiting - as a light to the world?
I would like nothing better than to be proven wrong about this observation. Can someone give me some examples of what they are doing to help mankind and proclaim the gospel - and to fulfill the last part of Matthew 25?
Ken Nagele
Matthew 25 1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. 7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. 9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. 13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. 14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man traveling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods. 15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey. 16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents. 17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two. 18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them. 20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. 21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. 22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them. 23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. 24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. 26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: 27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. 28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. 29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. 30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
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Post by Charlotte S on Aug 26, 2006 6:30:08 GMT -8
Hi Ken,
Sometimes I think we are the Laodiceans. We are neither hot nor cold. I notice that most feel that we don't need to do anything that God will take care of everything and we are in need of nothing. I wonder if we aren't wretched, miserable, blind, and naked like the Laodiceans. I know that God is in control of everything. I also think that a lot of people feel that Matt 25 was for Israel only since Jesus message was for the lost sheep of the house of Israel. I go back and forth on this issue a lot. Are we, or are we not, suppose to do anything? Here is the only answer I have come up with. If God is laying it on your heart to do something, then you need to move.
Charlotte
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Post by Ken Nagele on Aug 26, 2006 11:31:13 GMT -8
Hello Charlotte,
I agree, we fit the profile of the ekklesia of Laodicea perfectly. We have knowledge that very few others have - and we do nothing with it (other than post it on the ASK website for the benefit of those very few who have the motivation to dig for it). We have talents and abilities - yet we fail to act on them. If we are to be a light to the world, where is the light bulb?
Yes, God is in control of everything and He will make the necessary chances when needed. In the mean time, I just felt that I had to say something, as I am totally embarrassed by the entire situation.
I do feel that Matthew 25 was written for us as the first part deals with the Kingdom of God, which Doctor Martin wrote extensively on.
By the way, I have also found this question of "what should we be doing with our lives" on the Tentmaker Forum, too. So it is a question that many Christians are apparently asking themselves. I feel that Matthew 25 answers that question perfectly. Why would God ignore (in the Bible) the answer to such an obvious question?
Thanks for your input!
Ken Nagele
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Post by Charlotte S on Aug 29, 2006 13:41:59 GMT -8
Hi Ken,
Just found this verse and was wondering what you thought this verse meant?
(2Peter 3:11-12) (Verse 12) Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God. {Or hasting the coming}
Is it possible for us to hasting the day of God?
Charlotte
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Post by Ken Nagele on Aug 29, 2006 20:21:54 GMT -8
Hello Charlotte, Yes, according to this and other scriptures, the day of His coming may be hastened. However, my gut feeling is that this "hastening", if it is to occur at all, will not start until end-time events really start happening, which I doubt will be in our lifetime. Also of interest in this chapter dealing with the end-times is verse 14: "Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless." So, if a hastening were to occur, would we be ready for it (individually and/or collectively)? Thanks for your question. Ken
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Jon
New Member
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Post by Jon on Aug 31, 2006 7:55:16 GMT -8
That Greek word speudo translated as "hasting" has two meanings:
1) to make haste 2) to desire earnestly
I think the idea that's being presented here is not that Christians have any effect on the timing of the Day of the Lord (to hasten its coming, in other words), but that we are to desire earnestly its coming. The timing of events in history belongs only to God, and not even Jesus knows the day or hour.
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Post by Robert on Sept 7, 2006 15:09:09 GMT -8
Hi Ken! This is a late reply to your post on Matt. 25 being as I just got my new ISP and email address Tuesday. There are many lessons an individual can draw from that chapter in Matthew. The first 30 verses or so deal with Christ telling his disciples about two parables and they center around subject matter of being prepared for the second advent of Christ. From verses 31 to the end of the chapter deal with what I think is a judgement for Christ is separating the nations. As to when and if we are practicing Matt. 25:35-40 is another question that one needs to ponder.I thought it a good point that Charlotte made as to when does a person actually get involved in doing a good work. On our own and without the influence of God's Holy Spirit we wouldn't do any! But being as we who are in Christ have a token of his Holy Spirit and are sealed with that spirit, it seems to me that when we do think of doing a good work that it is God inspiring us to do so. Because we are that new person in Christ but we are still human, we have this warring going on inside our minds. It seems that when we think mostly about ourselves we tend to go towards the old self and are more involved with doing things for self. When we think of others we tend to be more like Jesus Christ and God the Father doing more for others than ourselves, sacrificing self concern for that of others. In my opinion it is difficult to think of others especially when you have some pretty heavy trials of your own. I try to think to myself when I am blessed with a trial that somewhere out there in the world there are a whole bunch of individuals that have it much worse than the trial that I am going through. One has a tendency to come before God alot more when he has a trial rather then when there is not. You stated somewhere in your post or reply Ken that you haven't seen much action towards doing those things in Matt. 25:35-40 from people on the forums. I don't care for bragging and I don't think it is Christian to do so. How do you propose to evaluate a person or persons if you can't see or hear about their good deeds? I certainly wouldn't bring it up that I did this or I did that for I would be going against that which Christ admonishes us to do in Matt.6:3. If I didn't know your character better Ken, I would, after reading your post think that you were kinda hard on your fellow Christians. You said you were totally embarrassed by the situation. You must have had an experience or two that has caused you to be so. Maybe you would care to share them with us so that we may better understand where you are coming from. Perhaps you are a tad impatient because we are not seeing things happen quick enough with prophecy and with Christ coming sooner. What is it exactly are you expecting to happen with all the people of the ekklesia? You mention that the bible says we are to grow in grace and knowledge, yet you say you see very little of this evidence based on the topics on the ASK forum. It is said in scriptures that when something will happen that God will inform His prophets. So in the meantime we discuss what questions come to our minds and although it may be old stuff, there are those of us who don't learn as fast, or read as fast as the next person. Some are more educated than others. We all come from different backgrounds and experiences but in the end I am sure that God will bring it all together for each and every individual. In your post Ken you mention that no one discussed the subject of talents but I for one did bring the subject matter up some while back. Talents back then meant a certain measure of money, gold, or silver I believe. Today however, that word may mean an experience, or gift, like for instance being gifted with a beautiful voice to sing with. A person may be a wonderul programmer, a gifted speaker, a doctor, etc.,etc. Maybe you could expound on that for me for I am not exactly sure what you mean. Just what exactly are our qualifications for the inheritence in the Kingdom of God? You mention again not seeing evidence of people being involved in voluntary services in their communities. You must know an awful lot of people in the ekklesia and keep pretty close tabs on your friends to make such a statement. My complaint is that I don't get to see my brethren at all and wished I could. I envy you Ken that you are able to do so. There are other things I'd like to ask you Ken but I feel that I have "hogged" enough time and space on this post. I am asking you as a brother in Christ to enlighten me on some of these things as I readily admit I am an uneducated man. I hope I have not offended you by my questions and I hope to get a reply either in my personal email or through this post. It was a good question you proposed, very thought provoking. Looking forward to hear from you,
YBIC,
Robert
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Post by Ken Nagele on Sept 7, 2006 21:10:53 GMT -8
Dear Robert, Thank you for your lengthy reply. I appreciate all of your comments and questions. I am sure there are others that are thinking and wondering the same thoughts. FYI, I have started a section on Matthew 25 on the ASSOCIATES ONLINE website at: ernestlmartin.com/index3.htm#matthew in the hopes that this will motivate at least someone to take action. I will answer your post by interjecting my comments into your post in bold, below. Thanks again! Ken --------------- Hi Ken! This is a late reply to your post on Matt. 25 being as I just got my new ISP and email address Tuesday. There are many lessons an individual can draw from that chapter in Matthew. The first 30 verses or so deal with Christ telling his disciples about two parables and they center around subject matter of being prepared for the second advent of Christ. From verses 31 to the end of the chapter deal with what I think is a judgement for Christ is separating the nations. As to when and if we are practicing Matt. 25:35-40 is another question that one needs to ponder. I thought it a good point that Charlotte made as to when does a person actually get involved in doing a good work. On our own and without the influence of God's Holy Spirit we wouldn't do any! But being as we who are in Christ have a token of his Holy Spirit and are sealed with that spirit, it seems to me that when we do think of doing a good work that it is God inspiring us to do so. What is there to ponder? Do we really need to be inspired to do a good work? Putting our knowledge on the ASK site could be considered a “good work”, but was there any divine inspiration involved in doing so? I don’t think so. It’s just the right thing to do, out of love for our fellow man. Just as doing any other good work that helps our fellow man should also be based on that same love – and also on Matthew 25, where Jesus makes it perfectly clear how one can go about doing this. This is the basis of the “Christian Philosophy” – which we as a group have somehow forgotten.
Because we are that new person in Christ but we are still human, we have this warring going on inside our minds. It seems that when we think mostly about ourselves we tend to go towards the old self and are more involved with doing things for self. When we think of others we tend to be more like Jesus Christ and God the Father doing more for others than ourselves, sacrificing self concern for that of others. Exactly!In my opinion it is difficult to think of others especially when you have some pretty heavy trials of your own. I try to think to myself when I am blessed with a trial that somewhere out there in the world there are a whole bunch of individuals that have it much worse than the trial that I am going through. One has a tendency to come before God a lot more when he has a trial rather then when there is not. I agree!You stated somewhere in your post or reply Ken that you haven't seen much action towards doing those things in Matt. 25:35-40 from people on the forums. I don't care for bragging and I don't think it is Christian to do so. How do you propose to evaluate a person or persons if you can't see or hear about their good deeds? I certainly wouldn't bring it up that I did this or I did that for I would be going against that which Christ admonishes us to do in Matt.6:3. If I didn't know your character better Ken, I would, after reading your post think that you were kinda hard on your fellow Christians. I can’t recall, in almost a decade of reading posts, of anyone talking about what they do (or did) to help others, whether on an individual basis, within an organizational structure or just supporting an organization like the Salvation Army. This does not have to be “bragging”. This is sharing news of Christian love, exhorting and encouraging one another to do the same. This is something we should feel free to talk about, knowing that this is the basis of Christianity and was commanded by Jesus Himself.
Am I being “hard” here? Maybe (I have a well deserved reputation for that). But I feel it is time that someone stood up and said something. I don’t always win contests for being the most popular person. Neither did Christ.
You said you were totally embarrassed by the situation. You must have had an experience or two that has caused you to be so. Maybe you would care to share them with us so that we may better understand where you are coming from. Yes, I am embarrassed. But no, there were no specific incidents. But imagine sending people I know (and don’t know) to my site (which I do quite frequently, hence the daily visits of 150+), suggesting to them that we have some unique “truths” that they might want to check out. And then they eventually stumble onto the forums. And read them. What conclusions are they to come to? That we are, for a lack of a better description, Laodician in attitude? That we’ve forgotten the very basics of Christianity? That we pride ourselves in our advanced knowledge that very few others have. And then we spend our time online analyzing horses, bows and spears (which we and our children will never live to see)? Is this is how we are supposed to be a light to the world? Is this the group others would want to become part of? I think our track record (of attracting new supporters) speaks for itself.
Perhaps you are a tad impatient because we are not seeing things happen quick enough with prophecy and with Christ coming sooner. What is it exactly are you expecting to happen with all the people of the ekklesia? I have no problem with the pace of things. God is in complete control. In fact, I am at a complete loss to understand why prophecy has even entered into this discussion.
What is going to happen to all of the people in this ekklesia? They are all going to die. Just like all Christians before them. Why would we expect anything else? But what we do in our few remaining years will impact on our position within the Kingdom of God. This is what the middle part of Matthew 25 seems to be talking about. That is an issue for each one of us to address privately - but is not the issue that I am addressing here. I am addressing the latter part of Matthew 25 where Jesus gives specific examples of how one can help one another – and thereby give to Christ, as Dr. Martin has discussed in his numerous tithing articles.You mention that the bible says we are to grow in grace and knowledge, yet you say you see very little of this evidence based on the topics on the ASK forum. If someone can prove me wrong, I am all ears. I would love to see examples of growing in grace and knowledge – and for me to be proven wrong. But I still see none. Over 100 views of this post and not one example.
Our only connection with one another is through the Internet forums and emails. If we can’t share these things here, where can we share them?
It is said in scriptures that when something will happen that God will inform His prophets. Correct. And there are no prophets among us at this time, including, by his own admission, Dr. Martin.
So in the meantime we discuss what questions come to our minds and although it may be old stuff, there are those of us who don't learn as fast, or read as fast as the next person. Some are more educated than others. We all come from different backgrounds and experiences but in the end I am sure that God will bring it all together for each and every individual. The information on the ASK site has been there for over a decade. And for a decade before that it was sent out to everyone once a month in both printed and audio-tape format. That’s two decades of teaching. 90% of what I see posted is easily answerable by doing a simple search on the ASK site. The rest is simply irrelevant. If God wanted us to know more than this, He would have provided for us as He did in the past. This is what is known as Progressive Revelation.
Again I ask, is this what we should be doing with our time – while we ignore Christ’s Matthew 25 command?
In your post Ken you mention that no one discussed the subject of talents but I for one did bring the subject matter up some while back. Talents back then meant a certain measure of money, gold, or silver I believe. Today however, that word may mean an experience, or gift, like for instance being gifted with a beautiful voice to sing with. A person may be a wonderul programmer, a gifted speaker, a doctor, etc.,etc. Maybe you could expound on that for me for I am not exactly sure what you mean. I don’t claim to be any Bible scholar, but considering the context in which the ‘talents’ section is located, I would presume it has to do with using what God has given each and every one of us to His Glory – and for an eventual ‘position’ reward in the Kingdom. Again, I could be wrong. But I don’t think it has to do with just money. There are few things one can invest money in that aren’t ultimately Satanic (with the possible exception of real estate). If you know of any others, please let me know. Yes, the gifts each one of us has that is unique to ourselves are the talents. And we all have them.Just what exactly are our qualifications for the inheritance in the Kingdom of God? All are already saved.You mention again not seeing evidence of people being involved in voluntary services in their communities. You must know an awful lot of people in the ekklesia and keep pretty close tabs on your friends to make such a statement. My complaint is that I don't get to see my brethren at all and wished I could. I envy you Ken that you are able to do so. I know of only two people personally in the ekklesia. I keep tabs on no one. I only know what I see online – as does the entire rest of the world.
There are other things I'd like to ask you Ken but I feel that I have "hogged" enough time and space on this post. I am asking you as a brother in Christ to enlighten me on some of these things as I readily admit I am an uneducated man. I hope I have not offended you by my questions and I hope to get a reply either in my personal email or through this post. It was a good question you proposed, very thought provoking. Looking forward to hear from you, Robert, I hope I have answered your comments adequately. If not, please don’t hesitate to respond. I don’t usually have a lot to say, but when I do, I tend to cause lots of waves. All is meant in brotherly love. : )
YBIC, Robert
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Post by renewbeginnings on Oct 22, 2006 10:38:47 GMT -8
Re Mathew 25 Good question Ken - you have covered a lot of parables here. Re : growing in grace and knowledge. Ministers and old timers in the PCG, with a certain amount of umbrage and condescension would state "I proved that 30 years ago," if a new twist in light of todays world was brought up. This attitude does not suggest growing, and in my rabble rousing on this forum, I notice a bit of the same attitude. Most of the people whose works we looked up to were in their prime - like 30 years ago. The world's stage has changed. Dr. Martin established a foundation. Their is sufficient scriptures that we can prove the Mystery to be self evident. He established a basis of future events, something that can be built upon, but not etched in stone. But it seems that his doctrines are held to rigidly in a fashion the same as Mr. Armstrong's is. Knowledge is increasing, and there is new light dawning. nuff said. Let us grow, rather than rehash. Helping the unfortunate is something that should be done on a personal basis, as it comes in contact with us. We are to do our alms in private, not make a show of it. In todays society there are to many people whose work is to live by defrauding the public. As a former truck driver, these people hung around truck stops, with their stories of woe. It makes it difficult to help those who really are in need. I helped the best I good if a trucker was in trouble, needing a boost or a wrench. Trucker code is to refuse payment, but to admonish - help out the next guy that needs it. In the WCG and PCG we worked to keep ourselves unspotted by the world. In essence, we hid our light "under a bushel", except at feast time, when we were overly polite and overly generous in our tips. Since that time we are now seeking to be familiar and kind with our neighbors, and help out in a community organization or two, however able. Helping those in prison? I think not today, unless they are a personal acquaintance. There no doubt is a lot of injustice. In Canada as well, there were several people serving long terms for murder they did not commit. But oft times we are known by the company we keep, or found in situations one should not have been in. There is a proverb, and I have learned it to be true - that getting involved in another man's squabbles is like grabbing a snarling dog by the ears. It is hard to get away without getting hurt yourself. How do we build our talents. Certainly not by working the same job for 40 years, and spending the weekend watching sports. What I received from WCG is that we are on earth to build Character, and I believe personality. Will you be happy in the kingdom, being what you are now? Will anyone else be happy with you. Will you have friends? We may want to think about this. Are you a moaner and complainer, or a mirthful doer. Are we experiencing the world and learning. There must be a reason for the beauty and diversity. Otherwise we would have eyes that only see shades of grey, and only have lumpy oatmeal to eat. Are we experiencing life and utilizing the proverbs. We are to be priests (teachers). The worst teachers are those who know the theory, but not the practical. Does anyone else feel that the door Dr. Martin has led us to is in essence the most narrow. We no longer conduct ourselves according to our peers, but must work out our own salvation. And we won't get our test results until the next semester. Cheers, Elvin
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Post by Ken Nagele on Oct 23, 2006 19:24:31 GMT -8
Hello Elvin, Thank you for your post. Let me interject my response in bold below. Re Matthew 25 Good question Ken - you have covered a lot of parables here. Re : growing in grace and knowledge. Ministers and old timers in the PCG, with a certain amount of umbrage and condescension would state "I proved that 30 years ago," if a new twist in light of todays world was brought up. This attitude does not suggest growing, and in my rabble rousing on this forum, I notice a bit of the same attitude. Most of the people whose works we looked up to were in their prime - like 30 years ago. The world's stage has changed. Dr. Martin established a foundation. Their is sufficient scriptures that we can prove the Mystery to be self evident. He established a basis of future events, something that can be built upon, but not etched in stone. But it seems that his doctrines are held to rigidly in a fashion the same as Mr. Armstrong's is. Knowledge is increasing, and there is new light dawning. nuff said. Let us grow, rather than rehash. What Dr. Martin gave us was a foundation of knowledge. A foundation is the basis of anything that is built upon. This is in fact the main reason that he left the FBR, because they didn't have or want a foundation of knowledge. They wanted a debating society.
I have attempted to consolidate that foundation into a Statement of Beliefs: ernestlmartin.com/index.htm#beliefsHelping the unfortunate is something that should be done on a personal basis, as it comes in contact with us. We are to do our alms in private, not make a show of it. I don't think that is what Jesus meant. How many people do you personally know that are in jail or are hungry? Probably none. This is why Jesus was specific about these categories. People in these situations are usually "out of sight" - and no one pays any attention to them. Therefore, one must seek them out to even find out who they are. This takes some effort - which most of us who claim to be Christians are simply not willing to do. Then we hide behind the cloak of false modesty, not wanting to brag about our good deeds that in reality don't even exist.In todays society there are to many people whose work is to live by defrauding the public. As a former truck driver, these people hung around truck stops, with their stories of woe. It makes it difficult to help those who really are in need. So you are saying that it is too hard to decide who should be helped - so we just shouldn't help anyone? There is an abundance of organizations in any community that provide worthwhile help to people. And if you still need some ideas, I have a whole list right here: ernestlmartin.com/index3.htm#matthewI helped the best I good if a trucker was in trouble, needing a boost or a wrench. Trucker code is to refuse payment, but to admonish - help out the next guy that needs it. Not to minimize your good deeds, but this clearly falls into the category of just being a good Samaritan - clearly not what Jesus was referring to in Matthew 25. This type of help should be a common sense, no-brainer Christian activity. People do this all over the world who are not even Christian.In the WCG and PCG we worked to keep ourselves unspotted by the world. In essence, we hid our light "under a bushel", except at feast time, when we were overly polite and overly generous in our tips. Since that time we are now seeking to be familiar and kind with our neighbors, and help out in a community organization or two, however able. Helping those in prison? I think not today, unless they are a personal acquaintance. There no doubt is a lot of injustice. In Canada as well, there were several people serving long terms for murder they did not commit. But oft times we are known by the company we keep, or found in situations one should not have been in. Please correct me if I am misunderstanding you, but are you saying that if someone is in jail, they probably deserve it because of the company they kept? And even if that were true, I don't think Jesus mentioned that as an excuse for not visiting them. Do you know that the U.S. has the highest percentage of people in jail of any country? Do you know that a conservative estimate puts the number of people falsely convicted at 10%. Not to mention the unjust convictions for drug related crimes that draw long sentences for minor offenses.
Did you know that just last week two border patrol agents received 11 and 12 years for shooting at a drug smuggler (who not only was granted immunity from prosecution and allowed to sue the U.S. for their "behavior", but has since tried to run drugs again)? Their lives are shattered, as well as their families lives. Their conviction has sent an ominous message to all other border patrol agents - "let the drugs through". Their prosecution order came down from none other than the President himself . Therefore, they can now be considered "political prisoners". Does anyone here even have an ounce of compassion for these people? Certainly, no one has commented on this situation.There is a proverb, and I have learned it to be true - that getting involved in another man's squabbles is like grabbing a snarling dog by the ears. It is hard to get away without getting hurt yourself. How do we build our talents. Certainly not by working the same job for 40 years, and spending the weekend watching sports. What I received from WCG is that we are on earth to build Character, and I believe personality. Will you be happy in the kingdom, being what you are now? Will anyone else be happy with you. Will you have friends? We may want to think about this. Are you a moaner and complainer, or a mirthful doer. Are we experiencing the world and learning. There must be a reason for the beauty and diversity. Otherwise we would have eyes that only see shades of grey, and only have lumpy oatmeal to eat. Are we experiencing life and utilizing the proverbs. We are to be priests (teachers). The worst teachers are those who know the theory, but not the practical. Does anyone else feel that the door Dr. Martin has led us to is in essence the most narrow. We no longer conduct ourselves according to our peers, but must work out our own salvation. And we won't get our test results until the next semester. Cheers, Elvin Perhaps a better question might be "what am I going to be doing in the Kingdom", based on what I did (or didn't do) when I had the chance in this lifetime? So far, I'm not seeing any fulfillment of Matthew 25. But I am seeing a lot of excuses. God help us if we are to be the "teachers".
Ken
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Post by renewbeginnings on Oct 24, 2006 21:19:15 GMT -8
Well Ken, I guess I should consider myself one whipped puppy.But out here, there is a certain amount of envy towards our incarcerated. They don't need to work, for a roof over their heads, they have exercise gyms, 3 square meals a day. The only complaint seems to be that they are becoming smoke free. What you are describing re border patrol is a whole other matter. The problem lies in our democratic or republican system. Your only recourse is to vote for the party out of power. What can you do when both parties are in the same bed, and the outcome is the same, no matter whose turn it is to be in power. And since they claim to be legally elected by the majority, any action other than by voting would be considered treasonous. We are effectively like Israel in Egypt, requiring 2 incomes to make 1 living. But we are pacified with plenty of nurtritionless food, nice cars, as well as more circus events than what the romans had. We keep our heads down, and scurry out of the way when the wolves come and take out any that could possibly be a threat. The talk show hosts rant and rave, and make us feel that someone is up to the task. But most of that is just a show. What could the ancient priests do as they watched the leaders going into idolatry. Is there a mighty orator out there, or a leader that can summon up millions of patriots, that can take up arms and march against Washington. There is no other way, apart from God himself sending down a worldwide hail of fiery stones to once again end civilization as we know it, and sending His son to take over all the nations of this earth.
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Post by Ken Nagele on Oct 24, 2006 22:00:07 GMT -8
Elvin, There is one other option to our present day state of affairs: ernestlmartin.com/index.htm#maydayIf we can all do this, we just might make a difference. It has in fact happened in the past. Why don't we give it a try? Ken
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Post by brushfaces1 on Nov 21, 2008 14:51:52 GMT -8
What a shame, no activity on this great site in such a long, long time. It is truly sad. On this subject I'd say we are a scattered lot, Ken. I now belong to a church, not because I believe in their bylaws, but because there is a Body of Christ believing people that God allows me to serve.......for nothing. I also have belonged to a 12 step program that gives me opportunity to serve both needy patients and needy prisoners, anonymously. I can't say much more about it but always get the feeling that God is watching and that He approves. Maybe the fruits of Dr Martin's work over the years have Bourne fruit in ways not able to be expressed freely on this forum....just a guess and my two cents worth. Jack B
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Post by Ken Nagele on Nov 22, 2008 17:09:34 GMT -8
Hello Jack, It is truly sad that there is no activity here. At one time, on the other forum, there were over one hundred posts just in response to one post that I initiated. Most of these people have since disappeared, including one whole family of ASK people. So I have to ask, "Where is the Holy Spirit at work within the ASK ekklesia?" All that is left (on the other forum) is about a dozen people who occasionally make and answer posts... and on rather benign and irrelevant subjects at that. Few if any of them come to this website (and forum) - and it is obvious by the posts and responses to posts (on the other forum) that most of these people have no clue about what is going on in the world around them. Nor do they seem to understand the basics of good health (which constitutes a major part of this website), as they all seem to be on some kind of prescription drugs to control what appear to be basic pH health issues. I am glad to hear that you are involved in the programs that you are. God bless you for that. Most ASK'rs would never do that, feeling that their (rather vague) support of ASK some how fulfills Matt 25. There are many things that can help prisoners and people with addictions. Be sure to read all of the EFT and pH (alkalinity) sites on the Health page. While the 12 Step Program is good, it still doesn't address the more basic needs of these people - to get their emotions, their bodies pH and their nutrition under control. My wife and I are involved with Justice on Trial. Plus, we are directly helping a person who has been unjustly convicted: ernestlmartin.com/index6.htm#injusticesI am sure God is watching and happy with what you are doing. Be sure to read the new book I have online, Jesus, the Man and His Work: ernestlmartin.com/images/Wallace_Wattles_-_Jesus_The_Man_and_His_Work.pdfTake care and keep up the good work! Ken N.
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