Post by zerofly on May 18, 2013 11:37:15 GMT -8
I have decided to start a thread on these subjects, because I feel they are important issues that people really don't understand. Even though I am no theologian or an expert on the scriptures the Christian religion has got these two concepts wrong(The Fall of Man and Sin). The concept of "The Fall of Man" is wrong, because it is based on an incorrect idea of who Adam and Eve were. Most Christians have been taught or believe, that Adam and Eve were these perfect immortal beings. They have this idea that when they were created that they were the zenith of God's creation. Yet, if you study the scriptures, they show a different picture about Adam and Eve. Here is part of an e-mail I wrote to someone that deals with this issue of this thread.
If you look at what I wrote in the email you could see how this connects to the issue of sin. Most people think of sin as a thing, but what if it is something else entirely. Sin is taught as the cause of our downfall, but what if it is the effect. What if something else is the cause of sin, and not sin itself. If you look at the email I wrote, since man was created a mortal soulish being, could it be that mans soulish nature is the cause of his sin. and not sin itself? It says that the wages of sin is death, but why does man sin? Man did sin in the Garden of Eden, but for some reason there are people who think that when man ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, that sin and death entered into man. This has to be incorrect, because it never really says this in the Bible. It says that man is subject to the law of sin and death, and that God subjected man to disobedience, but it nevers says that sin and death entered into man. I think the confusion that comes from these issues is that people think that the soulish carnal nature of man and sin are two different things. When the truth is that they are one and the same thing. Man's carnal soulish nature is his sinful nature, not the byproduct of his sinful nature. The reason man sins is because of what he is, not because of something that came into him. Sin is not some evil gaseous energy that permeates our body, it is our nature the nature that God made us with.
This is why we need to be saved, because we are incomplete and need what Jesus Christ has. Adam and Eve could never resist the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, because they didn't have what Christ had, and that is a oneness with the Father. Why do they call salvation atonement, atonement means at one ment to be one with God, and the only way you can be one with God is through Jesus Christ. God's goal is to be All in All and the only way that is going to happen for the human race is through Jesus Christ. To become what God wants us to be or to be perfected we need Jesus Christ, because He is the channel through which we become one with God. Only God the Father is perfect holy and righteous, and for man to become perfect holy and righteous, we have to become saved. Adam and Eve were never perfect holy or righteous. They were mortal carnal soulish beings who could not resist the temptation of the tree. This is why we sin and die, we sin because of our mortal carnal nature, we die because of our mortal carnal nature. Until we become saved we will never stop sinning, and we will never be immortal. What are you guys thoughts about this? I am sorry if this post seems all over the place and not connected at all. It is just that this is an issue that has been pressing on my mind lately.
Lately it seems God is trying to show me in the Bible the doctrine of the "Fall of Man" is false and not found anywhere in the Bible. Christianity teaches that there was a fall of man in the Garden of Eden, because of their understanding of the phrase: Let Us Make Man in our image and likeness. They think that when man ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil man fell from this state of perfection and became a sinner. I think this is wrong, because man was never in a perfect state in the garden of eden. I did some research on the phrase "let us make man in our image and likeness", and some people think it should say "let us be making man in our image and likeness".
According to traditional Christianity when God made man He created the finished product in the Garden of Eden, because of their interpretation with that phrase. Yet, if you look at that phrase in it's correct translation the phrase is implying a creative process, that has application in the present and in the future. Another reason traditional Christianity thinks that man was created perfect is in Genesis it says that God calls what man was at that time "very good". The truth is though is that phrase could mean very good in its purpose and not in any state of morality or perfection. I can't help but think that the doctrine of the "Fall of man" perverts the truth of Christ's sacrifice on the cross. If the doctrine of the fall of man is true the purpose of Christ sacrifice was to appease the wrath of God against man's mistake, but this contradicts who God is. Since God is sovereign over everything and determines what happens at what time. How can you look at what happened in the garden of eden as mans mistake? It says in the book of Revelation that before the foundation of the world that the lamb would be slain. This verse right here shows that God planned for man's failure, by having his son die on the cross to take away the sins of the world.
Since this is the case we have to take it to its next logical step, that God made man imperfect from the beginning. This is the reason why man sinned against God at the garden of eden. It wasn't because of their own free will and volition, it was because they had a nature in them given by God that caused them to sin against Him. Why does it say in the Bible that God subjected man to vanity, or that God subjected man to disobedience? The question we have to ask ourselves is when did God do this, the only logical answer we can give is when He made man of the earth. God doesn't make mistakes and the doctrine of the fall of man implies that God screwed up with man in the beginning, because they couldn't do what he asked. I think we have to rethink God's purpose in the Garden of Eden, because a lot of Christians base the whole idea of man going to hell on this event. They think, because Adam and Eve sinned that God is angry with man and unless man gets "saved" they are going to hell. This whole idea of the fall of man puts God in a bad light, because it says that God failed with man and is a bad creator. God is none of those things, because He is Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient, and also He is a God of love. He knew what He was doing when He made man flawed in the Garden of Eden.
The other reason the "Fall of Man" is false is it implies man has a choice or has the potential to choose the right thing. This would imply that man is responsible for his salvation, but it says in the scriptures that no man can come to the Father with out his help. It says by grace are we saved and that it is a gift from God. Even Christ himself said that of myself I can do nothing only through the Father can I do anything. Since Christ is the Son of God do you think we could be any different? This doctrine in a way puts man in a better light than God, and that is wrong. I think people want to believe in this doctrine, because they want to rely on their own goodness instead of God. Yet, in the Bible God says no flesh shall glorify itself in His presence, and that our righteousness is but filthy rags to Him. Why would God say these things about our nature unless He made us flawed from the beginning. The human race needs Jesus Christ, because Jesus Christ is the 2nd part of our creative process. The true purpose of salvation is that it is an upgrade not a remedy. Not only is what Christ doing for the human race an upgrade, but that he is also upgrading the universe. Take a look at Colossians 1: 15 - 20
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over ALL creation. 16 For in him ALL things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; ALL things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before ALL things, and in him ALL things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have ALL his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself ALL things, whether things on EARTH or things in HEAVEN, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
God says in the Bible "Behold I make all things new" if "the fall of man" is true why would God make everything new? The nature of the fall of man implies that salvation is a remedy not an upgrade. Yet God is going to make everything new so salvation has to be an upgrade, not a remedy. I can't help but think about the story of Jeremiah going down to the potters house and God showing him that first the potter marred the clay and then made it into something new. We are that clay and God marred us in the Garden of Eden when he made us of the earth, and through Christ is making us into something new. A lot of people think that Adam and Eve were immortal in the garden and when they sinned they lost that immortality. I don't think this is the case Adam and Eve were never immortal they were only mortal. The reason for this is that man is referred to as soulish being and the carnal or soulish nature of man is always associated with mortality; not immortality. The reason man sins and dies is because of his mortal/carnal nature. The very nature that God created man with from the beginning. The only human being that is ever mentioned to being immortal is Jesus Christ and that was after his resurrection.
If you look at what I wrote in the email you could see how this connects to the issue of sin. Most people think of sin as a thing, but what if it is something else entirely. Sin is taught as the cause of our downfall, but what if it is the effect. What if something else is the cause of sin, and not sin itself. If you look at the email I wrote, since man was created a mortal soulish being, could it be that mans soulish nature is the cause of his sin. and not sin itself? It says that the wages of sin is death, but why does man sin? Man did sin in the Garden of Eden, but for some reason there are people who think that when man ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, that sin and death entered into man. This has to be incorrect, because it never really says this in the Bible. It says that man is subject to the law of sin and death, and that God subjected man to disobedience, but it nevers says that sin and death entered into man. I think the confusion that comes from these issues is that people think that the soulish carnal nature of man and sin are two different things. When the truth is that they are one and the same thing. Man's carnal soulish nature is his sinful nature, not the byproduct of his sinful nature. The reason man sins is because of what he is, not because of something that came into him. Sin is not some evil gaseous energy that permeates our body, it is our nature the nature that God made us with.
This is why we need to be saved, because we are incomplete and need what Jesus Christ has. Adam and Eve could never resist the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, because they didn't have what Christ had, and that is a oneness with the Father. Why do they call salvation atonement, atonement means at one ment to be one with God, and the only way you can be one with God is through Jesus Christ. God's goal is to be All in All and the only way that is going to happen for the human race is through Jesus Christ. To become what God wants us to be or to be perfected we need Jesus Christ, because He is the channel through which we become one with God. Only God the Father is perfect holy and righteous, and for man to become perfect holy and righteous, we have to become saved. Adam and Eve were never perfect holy or righteous. They were mortal carnal soulish beings who could not resist the temptation of the tree. This is why we sin and die, we sin because of our mortal carnal nature, we die because of our mortal carnal nature. Until we become saved we will never stop sinning, and we will never be immortal. What are you guys thoughts about this? I am sorry if this post seems all over the place and not connected at all. It is just that this is an issue that has been pressing on my mind lately.
