The end may be closer- defense

[renewbeginnings]

Hello all, I’m happy to see that my little blurb received at least some reaction. And yes, We were WCG, then holding on with PCG, then trying to be more precise yet with Triumph Prophetic, and have since become a “Paulician” through Mr. Martin. No longer being set apart by society, no more feeling “special” because of keeping the Sabbaths and Holy Days – we must now work out our own salvation – by living by the fruits of the Spirit. I have compared this transition to a child leaping through open air to his fathers arms, with faith being his only assurance. The Testimony of 12 witnesses that Christ was God come in the flesh, that he died and was resurrected, that we are reckoned to be in Him in all stages, from the beginning of the world is all that really matters. As it is written in a certain place, even if we have all knowledge, but no love, it all counts for nothing.

I have come to believe that the Bible is the foundation of all knowledge. John 21:25 states that the world would not have room for the books that would need to be written describing all the activities of Christ. So the Gospels and the O.T. give us the information required to explain the basics for our salvation. But even here, we need have certain suspicions since the scriptures were controlled by a great church and alterations made to aid conformity to their desires. The point I wish to make is that we cannot get all our information, strictly from the Bible.

I have gained a great respect for the works of Mr. Martin. And I have a great respect for those who are keeping his works alive. But he insisted that many of his ideas regarding prophecy were only speculation, and that more knowledge would be forthcoming, the closer we got to the end. He believed that a comet or something similar will destroy civilization and mentioned 70 years in rebuilding. You may want to read askelm.com/prophecy/p930101.htm You may also want to checkout www.escapeallthesethings.com and get the book, for some good information on Planet X.
The author is also familiar with Mr. Martin’s works.

That’s all for now. Although I urge you all to study
www.ellisskolfield.com/ and read his online books. They are free. He explains Daniel’s 70th week as 2484 years. From the Decree of Cyrus to Israel established in 1948 is about 2484 years. The Dome of the Rock was build at the middle of this “week” in 688A.D. Mr. Skofield effectively confirms the temple location to be in the place Mr. Martin specified. The Dome was built in what would have been the Court of the Gentiles. When it was built, sacrifices were no longer allowed at the temple site. With respect- Robert, if you prefer to listen to scoffers, rather than search for yourself, well ---. You mention Rev 1:1 . God revealed things that should shortly come to pass. That does not need to mean that it has to be still ahead of us. Had the Islamic Religious beast not been severely wounded at the Battle of Tours in Southern France 732AD, and at the Battle of Vienna when 20,000 Knights defeated 300,000 Moslem cavalrymen, we might all be saying “Allah Achbar”. It’s time to unlearn HWA.

[Robert]

Renewbeginnings,

Somehow you have gotten the impression that I consider anybody other than Dr. Martin who has a religious website is not worthy of my reading time. This is not true. You make it to sound as though I prefer to listen to scoffers? From your deduction of the little I have written about your posts you have come to the conclusion that I listen to scoffers. Please tell me what is and who is the scoffer in the statements that I have made. I know that my writing skills are not as good as they could be but if I am not stating something that is not quite to your understaning please ask me to rephrase it or put it in other terms so that what I say will be understood. I do bible study and do read compositions from other sites which have educated me. Ernest Martin is not the only one that God has given insight to scriptures. God chooses whom He will to educate us, to help us grow in grace and knowledge. For your information sir I trashed the teachings of HWA and the WWCG the second that I walked out their doors! Please be so kind as to educate this person as to where you extrapolated the information in the statement I quote of yours, "Had the Islamic Religious beast not been severely wounded at the Battle of Tours in Southern France 732AD, and at the Battle of Vienna when 20,000 Knights defeated 300,000 Moslem cavalrymen". Was this statement from one of Ellis Skofields articles? Peace be with you my brother and may God open your eyes to the truth also,

Robert

[Jon]

renewbeginnings,

That was a very interesting post. I always like to entertain new ideas, because I'm a firm believer that you can never know where truth is going to come from. Also, we must train ourselves to have an open mind, as I'm sure you'd agree.

Although I believe that the 70th week of Daniel is a literal seven-year period, I am willing to forego that for the sake of argument. I am also willing to forego the idea that 688 AD is not exactly halfway between Cyrus' decree and 1948. I am especially willing to forego that last point on the basis that I am in agreement with Dr. Martin that atheistic scholars' opinions on Biblical dates are most likely wrong and that someone will come along who will set matters straight. 688 AD would be the halfway point if the starting point was around 572 BC. However, most scholars agree that Cyrus' decree was between 536-539 BC. But like I said, I think we can fudge on that point.

So now that we've got that out of the way, I'm curious as to how we could then interpret all the things that are said to take place in Daniel's 70th week. Who is the beast? What is the mark of the beast? Who are the two witnesses? What are the seals, trumpets and bowls?

And beyond the 70th week, why hasn't Christ returned yet? If the 70th week ended in 1948, it's been almost 60 years since then. How is this explained?

These questions are not meant as a sarcastic jab, as in "Ha! What do you have to say about THAT?!" These are honest questions, because I believe that the true eschatological system will answer every question and fulfill every biblical prophecy in a manner that will make at least a modicum of sense. I await your reply.

God bless,

Jon Gaskill

[renewbeginnings]

Robert,

Sorry if I touched a raw nerve. You wrote: ” Been to Ellis Skofields site and read several questions that bible studiers have asked him and I can't say as I am really impressed with him. Don't see as many references to prove his speculations if any at all.” This implies to me that rather than study his material, you preferred the “questions”. And now you want me to summarize in 20 words or less, what he wrote in a book of 200 plus pages. If that is not the case, then I apologize. However, since you stated that you immediately trashed Mr. Armstrong’s teachings upon leaving the WCG, I think I have you pegged, and an apology will not be necessary. Mr. Armstrong may have been the foolish shepherd of Zech 11: 15-17, but a shepherd used by God nonetheless. He brought thousands of “hungry” people to an awareness of their purpose in life and towards the Fruits of the Holy Spirit through commandment keeping and through the Holy Days. Mr. Martin stressed that they are still in effect in order to lead schoolchildren to maturity. So I believe that one trashes Mr. Armstrong’s works at one’s own peril. I just wish I could have graduated a few years sooner. However, to date, I believe all of Mr. A’s prophecies have come to naught. A person who spent many years at Pasadena and wrote numerous articles for the Plain Truth, wrote that Mr. A’s personal sins caused God to turn away and confound his understandings of end time prophetic events, making him to look foolish in the eyes of the world.

So to this day we look at Germany as the boogeyman. But most of us by now should realize that Hitler was a stooge, set up by the Illuminati, as well as Lenin and Trotsky. The International bankers financed axis and allies alike. These “evil beings” will do whatever it takes. Their only allegiance is to Satan, and if it takes 6 million Jews or 3000 people in a building complex, to stir up foment, it matters not. I cannot understand how we can enjoy novels and movies with plots, sub-plots, subversives, and all manner of intrigue, and yet, cannot conceive of a conspiracy by elitists to control the world. But then Satan’s greatest ploy is to appear as a non entity, or as a lightbringer.

Throughout the Bible, the conflict has been between Isaac and Ishmael. I am beginning to believe that this struggle continues to the end, between the lukewarm Christian nations descended from Sarah and Keturah, which would include Germany, and the bitter and hasty Islamic nations that game out of Hagar.

So it will be to the end. The Beast of Rev 13 is a composite (leopard-Bear-Lion) group of nations occupying the territories of the previous world powers. These nations are united through Islam (a religion that is hate, rather than love and states “God forbid that He should have a Son”.). It is this beast that hates the great sleeper – eating her flesh and burning her with fire. This beast came back into power, because of the beast with two horns, that speaks like a dragon, empowered it with the multiple billions of dollars of oil revenues. God is using the Islamic beast to punish a lukewarm Christianity. Then He will utterly destroy Egypt, the Philistines, and Moab. Edom, Kedar, Hazor, Babylon, Ammon, Tyre and Sidon. It is quite possible that these nations will receive the brunt of fiery hailstones (meteorites) from the earth traveling through the tail of Planet X. You can read the first account of this happening in Joshua 10:9-15. It is possible that this will be the time when the bowls of God’s wrath will be poured out.

I will say no more regarding Islam or Planet X. I again urge you to get the whole story by visiting
www.ellisskolfield.com and www.escapeallthesethings.com We seem to have developed a mindset that all of Revelation is still in front of us and will be played out in a nice organized time block of seven years or so. Such a scenario has never happened in biblical history. And why do we ignore the heinous holocaust of the reformation times of the 1500s when the Great sleeper tortured and butchered my ancestors and yours for holding to the testimony of Jesus Christ. Can you not believe that these Saints came out of great tribulation? John received a vision of what would shortly come to pass. That vision has been unfolding for the past 2000 years.

Not to ignore you Jon, but my stilted abbreviated answers would not satisfy. It is all fully explained and falls into place, when earth years are converted to biblical years. I am still studying as well.

It is a miracle if our eyes were opened to understand the Mystery revealed to Paul. If we now make everything else that Mr. Martin came to conclusions about into dogma, then we have created another religion, and I believe that he would “turn over” in his grave.
Next posting will be about Noah only being pure in his generations. Happy Sabbath, Elvin

[Ken Nagele]

Hello Elvin,

Like Robert I have done a quick perusal of Mr. Skolfield's website (and the other one you linked). I have to say that the information there is not a whole lot different than that of Hal Lindsey's website (and his many books). And therein lies the problem.

Prophecy is big business. Catering primarily to the Protestant/Evangelical crowd can literally earn you millions of dollars - as it has with Mr. Lindsey. Ironically, it doesn't seem to matter if one's predictions don't come true, or if what one states in one book contradicts what is said in the next book. The fact is that all of these authors are catering to a market of people who just want to know when the correct time is to "flee" - or be "raptured", as the case may be.

I find it ironic that you hold Dr. Martin in such high esteem, but essentially have trashed all of his prophetic research. Nothing that he ever came up with would ever coincide with what these present day prophets say in their writings.

I also find it ironic that you understand the Illuminati, yet (and please correct me if I am wrong) I find no evidence that any of these writers have a clue what that subject is about. In fact, their thrust seems to play right into the contrived Islam/terrorist/9-11 bogeyman scenario the Illuminati would have you believe. And then to weave that fairy tale into end-time prophecy, scriptures are (as usual) taken out of context and/or misapplied/misunderstood. And not a one of them has told the truth about 9/11, which is so easy to document: ernestlmartin.com/index7.htm#9/11 Is that because it would flush their theories right down the drain?

On the left hand side of the ASSOCIATES ONLINE is an impressive list of the accomplishments Dr. Martin achieved in his lifetime. While he never claimed to be a prophet (and prophecy is not even listed as one of his major accomplishments), his track record on prophecy seems to far exceed any of these other present-day prophets.

Perhaps a better approach to trying to figure out what will happen in the future would be to try and figure out what is happening right now. By building a foundation of knowledge of true present day events, we can then proceed to figure out the future.

So Elvin, in closing, I have to ask you, what really happened on 9/11?

Ken

[renewbeginnings]

Thanks for your comments Ken. I was reading some postings. Sounded like guys were getting bored. Maybe it’s like when I was in the PCG. Talking about one work or daily stuff was frowned upon. The leader was God’s anointed and infallible. So other than praising his sermon – there was not much left for discussion. So please don’t mind my rabble rousing. I haven’t had much practice.

First of all, I am past the fleeing or rapture stage. I had an experience that showed me how quick death can be. Besides what better way to cut to the front of the line.

Second, I have no vested interest in either of the websites I have quoted. Neither do I believe that they have all the answers. As well, neither of these sites would endear them to any form of rapture group.

I do not believe that I am trashing Dr. Martin’s works, as I will point out in a bit.

Re: Illuminati – Tim McHyde is aware of this cabal, and as for Mr. Skolfield, they do not really enter into his scenario, as his outlook is that much of what we have been looking forward to have already occurred.

Now none of us are likely aware of just how insidious the illuminati are, and how extensive their tentacles are. But it is my contention that they also control the Vatican through the Jesuits. There is a major struggle going on there. See www.todayscatholicworld.com. or www.popeinred.com.
The pope’s remarks on Islam were a deliberate provocation. The real puppet master is pulling strings to heighten Middle East tensions and provoke a war.
With regards to 9/11, I do believe that we have the same mindset. That is if you agree with the links that you led me to. It seems that a Pearl Harbor is always needed to run roughshod over the “peaceniks”.

Now my question is “How well did Dr. Martin understand the Illuminati. That word does not come up in his word search. Do the Zionists in Israel really want a temple to be built?
Would the Muslims allow it, even if it did not encroach on the Dome?

In the Feb 12/03 commentary Wars and Rumors of Wars, David Sielaff writes about how events will turn out in the Middle East. At the present time, I do not see these predictions coming about. He also mentions the rebirth of Babylon. Prov. 83 is brought up.

In the April/04 commentary, The Ten Nations and the Roman Empire, we read that Europe and Germany are definitely not the ten nation federation discussed in Revelation.
I have just realized that the great prostitute rides on a “scarlet” beast that comes out of the Abyss. Is this a third beast, separate from the NWO beast and what I believe could be an Islamic beast?

The Apr/01 commentary on The Prophesied State of Palestine talks about 10 nations plus Assyria. This group is already united under their religion, even though they still quarrel amongst themselves. Dr. Martin knew the fight was with the Ishmaelite people.
He may not have realized that the battle was to be Muslim against Christian. Iran is deliberately fomenting war, as they believe it will usher in their savior (Mahdi).

Mr. Martin looked for an asteroid destruction. In his time, Planet X was not understood yet. In Joshua’s time – did God personally throw stones at the Amorites? Do they play baseball in Heaven? Did He personally grab hold of the earth to stop its’ rotation. Or where world events timed to coincide with a near miss and cause the earth to stop its’ rotation through magnetic interference. Is this why the Ephramite army was defeated when they tried to leave Egypt about 30 years before their ordained time of captivity was up. (Because God would free Israel through plagues brought on by a planetary interference.)

Dr. Martin knew about the Boring Machines to tunnel caves underground, for the elite to hide from the wrath to come. From meteorite showers and so on. He may have known more than he let on. The Illuminati know that planet X is coming, and have known for quite a while. NASA through Hubble and other observatories (South Pole and Australia)
have been ordered to quash any information, so as to keep the masses ignorant and working to the end. This will keep the economic system going. At the same time they are seeking to be on top of the oil at the other end, believing/hoping that they will survive intact. It is estimated that 90% of the world’s population will die out, and it will take about 70 years for civilization to begin again. These numbers keep coming up.

So Dr. Martin and I may not have as many differences as you might like to believe. I think we have ignored the true middle eastern history and the rise of the muslin religion to our present day peril. The west does not know the true teachings of the Koran, or the mindset of its followers. There is no concept of commandment keeping, and any treaties they make can be broken with impunity, and are only made to lull the enemy to sleep. Our leaders who profess that Islam is honorable do so to their shame. Anyone who believes that they are a reasonable people that can be reckoned with is very naive.

Guys, I am very serious here. I know that I have a lot of research to do, and not nearly enough time to do it in. I refuse to be boxed in by believing one person has all the answers – I’ve been there. I have nothing of my own. But I am gathering some here and some there to put together a scenario that fits. The Bible is a foundation, but look to records on the other side of the world that fit with the Bible. Look at ancient Sumerian texts. Look at ancient artifacts. Look at the book of Enoch. Jude did.
At this time, to me, Dr. Martin’s scenarios are not that much different than Mr. Armstrong’s followers continuing to look for a European beast. Looking at all the events that need to occur (re temple building, etc) in light of current events is putting far away
the day. I will continue to “study”, not rehash, I am going to look at past events in the middle east. I hope you will do the same.

[Ken Nagele]

Hello again Elvin,

Thank you for your reply. I'll reply in bold within your post below:

Thanks for your comments Ken. I was reading some postings. Sounded like guys were getting bored. Maybe it’s like when I was in the PCG. Talking about one work or daily stuff was frowned upon. The leader was God’s anointed and infallible. So other than praising his sermon – there was not much left for discussion. So please don’t mind my rabble rousing. I haven’t had much practice.

If you are a rabble rouser, you are in good company here. In fact, we wrote the book on it!

First of all, I am past the fleeing or rapture stage. I had an experience that showed me how quick death can be. Besides what better way to cut to the front of the line.

Agreed.

Second, I have no vested interest in either of the websites I have quoted. Neither do I believe that they have all the answers. As well, neither of these sites would endear them to any form of rapture group.

Understood.

I do not believe that I am trashing Dr. Martin’s works, as I will point out in a bit.

Re: Illuminati – Tim McHyde is aware of this cabal, and as for Mr. Skolfield, they do not really enter into his scenario, as his outlook is that much of what we have been looking forward to have already occurred.

If Tim McHyde is aware of the Illuminati, he is doing a good job of keeping it a secret. There is nothing even remotely refering to them on his website. And you say Mr. Skolfield simply doesn't need to address the government behind the governments - yet has the answers to biblical prophecies involving these same governments? Somehow I instantly lose respect for such hypocritical thinking.

Now none of us are likely aware of just how insidious the illuminati are, and how extensive their tentacles are. But it is my contention that they also control the Vatican through the Jesuits. There is a major struggle going on there. See www.todayscatholicworld.com. or www.popeinred.com.
The pope’s remarks on Islam were a deliberate provocation. The real puppet master is pulling strings to heighten Middle East tensions and provoke a war.

The insidiousness and penetration of the Illuminati have been well documented for decades. My listing is one of the most extensive on the Internet. There are no secrets withheld here: ernestlmartin.com/index5.htm#illuminati

Yes, they control the Vatican and the Jesuits. But of what relative importance is this? They control most Protestant religions too.

With regards to 9/11, I do believe that we have the same mindset. That is if you agree with the links that you led me to. It seems that a Pearl Harbor is always needed to run roughshod over the “peaceniks”.

Agreed.

Now my question is “How well did Dr. Martin understand the Illuminati. That word does not come up in his word search. Do the Zionists in Israel really want a temple to be built?
Would the Muslims allow it, even if it did not encroach on the Dome?

You are correct. The name Illuminati does not come up in an ASK search. And to the best of my knowledge, Dr. Martin had no direct knowledge of this organization. However, if you study his article, Coming: The New World Order www.askelm.com/news/n030212.htm, it is a very accurate description of the Illuminati. He obviously understood it in principle.

As for the Zionists, I'm sure they probably don't want a rebuilt Temple. But that is irrelevant. It will in fact be done at the appropriate time. And at this point in time, it's not even a consideration, much less it's financing by the King of Iran, as prophesied. The Temple is prophesied to be rebuilt on the Mount of Olives, not on it's present perceived location - or on the true location a third of a mile south.

In the Feb 12/03 commentary Wars and Rumors of Wars, David Sielaff writes about how events will turn out in the Middle East. At the present time, I do not see these predictions coming about. He also mentions the rebirth of Babylon. Prov. 83 is brought up.

True. But these predictions are yet to occur. While one reading the article might get the impression that they were to happen in a relatively short period of time, it may well take several decades for them to be fulfilled. These are all right out the Bible.

In the April/04 commentary, The Ten Nations and the Roman Empire, we read that Europe and Germany are definitely not the ten nation federation discussed in Revelation.
I have just realized that the great prostitute rides on a “scarlet” beast that comes out of the Abyss. Is this a third beast, separate from the NWO beast and what I believe could be an Islamic beast?

I don't know.

The Apr/01 commentary on The Prophesied State of Palestine talks about 10 nations plus Assyria. This group is already united under their religion, even though they still quarrel amongst themselves. Dr. Martin knew the fight was with the Ishmaelite people.
He may not have realized that the battle was to be Muslim against Christian. Iran is deliberately fomenting war, as they believe it will usher in their savior (Mahdi).

Historically, Iran has never attacked another country. I seriously doubt they are trying to foment anything. They are just posturing for what would appear to be an imminent attack on them by the U.S.

Mr. Martin looked for an asteroid destruction. In his time, Planet X was not understood yet. In Joshua’s time – did God personally throw stones at the Amorites? Do they play baseball in Heaven? Did He personally grab hold of the earth to stop its’ rotation. Or where world events timed to coincide with a near miss and cause the earth to stop its’ rotation through magnetic interference. Is this why the Ephramite army was defeated when they tried to leave Egypt about 30 years before their ordained time of captivity was up. (Because God would free Israel through plagues brought on by a planetary interference.)

The Planet X issue is not taken seriously by anyone I know. Dr. Heiser (who is a world class biblical scholar in the same league as Dr. Martin) does not mention it in his writings (and he's aware of things far more esoteric than this). Jeff Rense, who is into everything, has nothing good to say about it either: www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=planet+x&sa=Search&domains=rense.com&sitesearch=rense.com (sorry, it wouldn't hyperlink properly).

As for baseball in heaven, I'm not quite sure on that one. As for the other major events, they all did or will take place at the right time. An astroid collision will occur, but not in our lifetime - or our children's. Everyting in due time.

Dr. Martin knew about the Boring Machines to tunnel caves underground, for the elite to hide from the wrath to come. From meteorite showers and so on. He may have known more than he let on. The Illuminati know that planet X is coming, and have known for quite a while. NASA through Hubble and other observatories (South Pole and Australia)
have been ordered to quash any information, so as to keep the masses ignorant and working to the end. This will keep the economic system going. At the same time they are seeking to be on top of the oil at the other end, believing/hoping that they will survive intact. It is estimated that 90% of the world’s population will die out, and it will take about 70 years for civilization to begin again. These numbers keep coming up.

I don't think Dr. Martin knew more than he led on. He was completely honest and open about everything. What we are missing here is one of his most important aspects of the end-time scenarios. One which NONE of the people you have quoted seem to be aware of. And that is, at the end-time, BEFORE the second comming, mankind will be at the pinnacle of achievement - in all fields. Not trying to eek out a stoneage type of living from the affects of an asteroid hit or a massive nuclear war. It will be a time of peace and prosperity. And that is NOT the picture that all of the other prophets are painting. Their picture is all gloom and doom.

So Dr. Martin and I may not have as many differences as you might like to believe. I think we have ignored the true middle eastern history and the rise of the muslin religion to our present day peril. The west does not know the true teachings of the Koran, or the mindset of its followers. There is no concept of commandment keeping, and any treaties they make can be broken with impunity, and are only made to lull the enemy to sleep. Our leaders who profess that Islam is honorable do so to their shame. Anyone who believes that they are a reasonable people that can be reckoned with is very naive.

Again, the present day "Islam-is-the-bogeyman" is just another phase in the Illuminati's ongoing world manipulation. Not too long ago the bogeyman was the USSR. Before that it was Germany. The rumor is that after they play out the Islam/terrorist bogeyman for all it's worth, the next perceived enemy will be aliens - and I don't mean Mexicans.

Guys, I am very serious here. I know that I have a lot of research to do, and not nearly enough time to do it in. I refuse to be boxed in by believing one person has all the answers – I’ve been there. I have nothing of my own. But I am gathering some here and some there to put together a scenario that fits. The Bible is a foundation, but look to records on the other side of the world that fit with the Bible. Look at ancient Sumerian texts. Look at ancient artifacts. Look at the book of Enoch. Jude did.
At this time, to me, Dr. Martin’s scenarios are not that much different than Mr. Armstrong’s followers continuing to look for a European beast. Looking at all the events that need to occur (re temple building, etc) in light of current events is putting far away
the day. I will continue to “study”, not rehash, I am going to look at past events in the middle east. I hope you will do the same.

Elvin, I think that the real problem here is that you have bought into the present day end-time paranoia that permeates the "Christian" community. Relax, go to the beach, have a drink. Nothing is going to happen that requires you to study day and night so that you will be prepared for some type of cataclysmic event. Studying the Bible for ones edification is one thing. But if something major is going to happen of a biblical proportion that we all need to know about - we'll know about it. That is what Progressive Revelation is all about! Thanks for your views.

Ken N.