Universal Reconciliation

[Jon]

My wife and I believe differently about the nature of God's salvation. She holds to the traditional view of heaven and hell, and the eternal d**nation of those who do not believe in Jesus. Last night she expressed her concern over this disparity, and wants to talk about it and understand why I changed my mind years ago to accept universal reconciliation. It's been a long time since I studied this, so I was hoping that people on this forum might offer suggestions as to how to go about this study with her. Hopefully my memory will be jogged, and as I read your suggestions I'll begin to recall all the Scriptures that discuss it.

This morning on the way to work, I figured that a great place to start would be in Genesis and establish the fact that a soul is not immortal and that when you die you become "asleep" for all intents and purposes. After that's established, I would move on to the definition of the Greek and Hebrew words for "age" that are usually translated as "forever" to illustrate that even if there were a hell, it would only be for a limited length of time. Finally, I would go over all the actual definitions of the words that usually get translated as "hell".

My wife isn't the biggest student of the Bible, but she's got a sharp mind and has great questions. If something doesn't seem right, she'll question it immediately. What do you guys think? How would you go about this if you were me?

[Ken Nagele]

Jon,

This would be my recommendation for anyone wanting to understand Universal Reconciliation and Christianity in general.

First, I would recommend reading Dr. Martin's three articles on Universal Reconciliation. They are conveniently linked at: ernestlmartin.com/index3.htm#biblical.

Then, I would recommend reading Dr. Martin's Essentials of New Testament Doctrine. This book can be read online for free at: www.askelm.com/essentials/index.asp or, if more convenient, purchased at: www.askelm.com/books/book007.htm.

If these publications don't ignite a positive response, then this probably isn't the right time to pursue the subject. Maybe some other readers have some more suggestions?

Good luck to you!

Ken Nagele

[Jon]

Ken,

I'm going to pass along to my wife those three essays by Dr. Martin and then see how that goes. Thanks for those links!

God bless,

Jon

[Jon]

Well, I have to disagree with Dr. Martin's explanation about the lake of fire. He believed that the reference to people being thrown into the lake of fire whose names are not written in the Book of Life is merely hypothetical since everyone's names will be in the Book of Life. This is in direct opposition to Daniel 12:2 which says:

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

In this description of the resurrection at the time of the end, it says that there are two fates awaiting those who are resurrected--one to life and one to contempt. Revelation 20 also describes a resurrection at the time of the end with two possible fates. Since these two Scriptures match up with each other, it can only be concluded that there will be some whose names are not written in the Book of Life.

Also, Daniel 12:2 cannot be talking about the first resurrection, in which those believers in Christ who were beheaded but did not receive the mark of the beast are resurrected and reign with Christ. There are not two fates mentioned for this group--only one.

I'm not saying that this disproves the doctrine of universal reconciliation, I'm just saying that I don't think Dr. Martin's explanation of the lake of fire is the correct explanation.

[swordfish]

Daniel12;2 referred to in John5;29 where they will be raised to judgement. This will surely be a time of correction for them.

[Jon]

Swordfish, I agree with you that those two passages from Daniel 12 and John 5 are speaking about the same thing. And I believe they line up with the White Throne Judgment in Revelation 20, where those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are thrown into the lake of fire.

[swordfish]

The big statement is that " IF anyone's name was not written in the book of life they would be throne into the lake of fire;" Fortunately the work of Christ IS COMPLETE, therefore all our names are there because of what HE has done!

[Jon]

Swordfish, the problem with that is that Daniel 12 (which also speaks of the White Throne Judgment) says that there WILL be some who will not be receiving a positive judgment. Look at Daniel 12:1-2

And at that time stand up doth Michael, the great head, who is standing up for the sons of thy people, and there hath been a time of distress, such as hath not been since there hath been a nation till that time, and at that time do thy people escape, every one who is found written in the book. And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during.

The concept of people being thrown into the lake of fire is not a hypothetical situation. It will literally happen. Now whether or not this is a permanent situation for those people is another subject. Some have postulated that the following Scripture from 1 Corinthians 3:10-16 applies:

According to the grace of God that was given to me, as a wise master-builder, a foundation I have laid, and another doth build on [it], for other foundation no one is able to lay except that which is laid, which is Jesus the Christ; and if any one doth build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw -- of each the work shall become manifest, for the day shall declare [it], because in fire it is revealed, and the work of each, what kind it is, the fire shall prove; if of any one the work doth remain that he built on [it], a wage he shall receive; if of any the work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; and himself shall be saved, but so as through fire. Have ye not known that ye are a sanctuary of God, and the Spirit of God doth dwell in you?

The section in bold is the one used as a reference, but as you can see when that verse is looked at within the context of the entire passage, this only applies to Christians--those who have the foundation of Jesus Christ and have the Spirit of God dwelling in them. In other words, they will be saved because their foundation is Jesus Christ--even though they don't have any good works to show for it.

I don't like the idea of giving up on the concept of universal reconciliation, but certain Scriptures are beginning to give me doubts. I need to do some more studying to see if there is any hope of escape from the lake of fire.

[swordfish]

So true .. " if of any the work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; and himself shall be saved, but so as through fire."...
* Many people try to work out their salvation and are convinced that their efforts will be rewarded, but they are an abomination in the eyes of our Father; this seems to mean that not one bit of what they consider to be a treasure will go with them. If you have ever had a fire in your house and lost everything that was inside then You are saved, but nothing else that you valued is saved from the fire. Many religions try to convince us that what we do now is vital to our salvation. This means that they are trying to add to the works that Jesus did! Eph 2; 8-10 For it is by free grace that you are saved through faith, and this is not of yourselves but it is the gift of God; not because of works lest any man should boast. For we are God's own handiwork recreated in Christ Jesus that we may do those good works which God predestined for us, that we should walk in them .
*The part about everlasting is where a suggestion is to look up the original greek or hebrew to see what the "aeon ",or age, is that has been translated as everlasting. I used to think that this meant eternity instead of a fixed amount of time as beset by our Father. This really helps to see the incredible depth of our Father :that for this age to come He has sent Jesus to make us acceptable in His sight and to correct us from being selfish in our decision making.
*1 John 2; 1-2 My little children, I write to you these things so that you may not violate God's law and sin. But if anyone should sin, we have an Advocate with the Father - Jesus Christ. And He is the atoning sacreifice for our sins, and not for ours alone, but also for the whole world."
*Please be encouraged to pursue this matter whole-heartedly, since He rewards those who seek Him.

[Jon]

Swordfish, I very much enjoyed reading your post. Great Scriptures, and great message!

I did a study a long time ago on the true definition of "age" but I think it's high time I looked into it again. I went over to Tentmaker.org, and found a great online book by J.W. Hanson that deals with the entire subject of universal reconciliation. I will be reading up on that and getting back to this forum with my opinions on that. Here's the link in case anyone else would like to check it out: www.tentmaker.org/books/HansonsFourWorks.pdf?bcsi_scan_570C9201494AB49E=0&bcsi_scan_filename=HansonsFourWorks.pdf

God bless,

Jon Gaskill